QUESTIONS ARISING FROM 139th. MEETING – 21/10/22 (the record of earlier meetings can be downloaded from the main Circulus page as can the version of Ciceronis Filius with illustrations added. The illustrated text of Genesis is available on the Genesis page, of Kepler's Somnium on the Somnium page and of Nutting's Ad Alpes on the Ad Alpes page)
We discussed again the challenges of second language learning, including in particular the problem of pronunciation. While every normal human being can accurately produce the sounds of the language he grows up with, adults differ enormously in their ability to imitate new sounds. John mentioned the case of linguist and anthropologist Robbins Burling, who did extensive research on Tibeto-Burman languages in NE India and beyond but also wrote an account of his attempt to learn Swedish. John corresponded with him whilst writing his own MA dissertation and learned that, though Burling never acquired Chinese, he pronounced the one sentence我不會中文 (Wǒ bù huì zhōngwén, `I don’t speak Chinese’) so accurately that people on the street in China didn’t believe him and persisted in trying to talk to him in the language. John does speak some Cantonese but his phonic ability is at the opposite end of the scale from Burling’s and his performance is the kind of thing that inspired the saying天不怕, 地不怕, 怕鬼佬講中文 (Tīn bāt pa, deih bāt pa gwaílouh góng jūngmahn, `I’m afraid of nothing else in heaven or on earth but I’m afraid of a gweilo speaking Chinese’).
Some details of Burling’s experiences with Swedish are included in John’s dissertation, `The Other Side of the Hill: Learning Cantonese as a Second Language in Hong Kong,’ which can be downloaded from https://chineselanguages.weebly.com/’ (look for hill.pdf)
Monica recommended using LingQ, which she thought a better platform than Duolingo as you can input your own text. It costs around HK$300 per year, though a free trial is available.. There is a review of the platform at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GxQZso89go and a video comparing it with Duolingo athttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkiWMI2Vjho
The LingQ portal
Monica also recommended the Chinese platform BUSUU for students of French. For details, go to https://www.busuu.com/
For some unfathomable reason, the question of the Latin for `poodle’ came up. This is canis aquāticus (water dog) and the reason behind the name is explained at the www.etymonline.com entry for the English name:
dog breed, 1808, from German Pudel, shortened form of Pudelhund "water dog," from Low German Pudel "puddle" (compare pudeln "to splash;" see puddle (n.)) + German Hund "hound" (see hound (n.)). Probably so called because the dog originally was used to hunt water fowl, but in England and America it was from the start mainly an undersized fancy or toy dog with long, curly hair. Figurative sense of "lackey" (chiefly British) is attested from 1907. Liz Truss’s short-lived tenure as UK premiers had come to an end the day before our meeting. Asked for his opinion on the current state of British politics, John momentarily hid his head under the table. There was then a brief discussioin of the background of Kwasi Kwarteng, who was sacked as chancellor of the exchequer (finance minister) while Truss was desperately trying to save her own position. Although he has to share responsibility with Truss for the disastrously ill-judged mini-budget which triggered a massive slump in the value of the pound, he has an impressive academic background. The son of Ghanaian students who came to Britain in the 1960s, he won a scholarship to Eton, and then studied classics and history at Cambridge, also representing his college in the TV quiz show, University Challenge. He went on to acquire a Ph.D. in economic history but kept his interest in Classics up, composing a set of Latin verses in the Lesser Asclepiad metre (° ° - ᵕ ᵕ - - ᵕ ᵕ - ᵕ -) to celebrate the London Olympics – something that is beyond John’s Latin competence. The poem is accessible at https://linguae.weebly.com/londinium.html. He has also written a well-regarded book on Britain’s imperial history, Ghosts of Empire.and the less well-known War and Gold.
We also discussed the political evolution of Scotland, once solidly Conservative (outside the Glasgow industrial belt) but now relatively left-wing. One analyst has suggested that the country, and particularly the Scottish National Party, are not radically left-wing but rather just opposed to the Westminster Establishment (see James Blodworth’s 2015 Politico article at https://www.politico.eu/article/scotland-snp-left-wing/. There has nevertheless been quite a sea-change and Tom Devine, a prominent Scottish historian, links this to the experience of the Thatcher years and to the dissolving of the old glue of Protestantism and Empire.. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/14/history-turned-on-tory-voting-scotland-thatcher-1980s
We read chapters etymology of 2-10 of Book III of Eutropius’ Breviarium, which include coverage of the early years of the 2nd.. Punic War. This naturally occasioned discussion of the name Hannibal, which, by the usual rules, has to be stressed on the middle syllable, as is the case with the Greek Ἀννίβας. Joe pointed out that Hebrew words were normally stressed on the last syllable and suggested that might have been the case with Punic also. Because the Punic script final not show vowels, we are unsure of the name’s constituent sounds. It might have been something like hanniba’al and meant Ba’al (a major North-West Semitic god) is gracious’. If the stress was on the last syllable, that would be consistent with modern Arabic, which stresses a final syllable if the word ends with a consonant or a long vowel.
We noted that there was some uncertainty about the length of the initial vowel in the adjective atrōx, but it was found later that Johan Winge’s macronizer (https://alatius.com/macronizer/) leaves it short. The derived noun atrōcitās seens to refer to the quality itself rather than to a particular instance of its display.
Extract from White’s Latin Suffixes (pg. 134)
Joe suggested that the verb lātrōcinor (to act as a robber, especially on the highway) was a back formation form the verb vāticinor, in which –cinor was probably derived from the root of canere (to sing). Lilly found on Google John Tahourdin,White’s Latin Suffixes which has a section on –cinor and which is also available as a reprint from Amazon. The Google copy is at https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=jqIP_o__QD0C and there is further discussion of the suffix and its derivation from canere at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-cinor#Latin
Discussion of the Carthaginians’ Phoenician origins led to Lily displaying a meme going the rounds on Alexander’s construction of a causeway to link the mainland with the island city of Tyre which he was then attacking. Since 332 B.C. the coastline has moved further out as seen in this picture used by John as part of his introduction to the story of Europa in Latin via Ovid.
EUTROPIUS, BREVIARIUM III 2-10
[2] L. Cornēliō Lentulō Fulviō Flaccō cōnsulibus, quibus Hierō Rōmam vēnerat, etiam contrā With Lucius Cornelius Lentulus [and] Fulvius Flaccus consuls under-whom Hiero eo-Rome had-come also against Ligurēs intrā Ītaliam bellum gestum est et dē hīs triumphātum.[1] Carthāginiēnsēs tamen Ligurians within Italy war waged was and over them triumph-celebrated Carthaginians however bellum reparāre temptābant, Sardiniēnsēs, quī ex condiciōne pācis Rōmānīs pārēre dēbēbant, war to-renew were-trying Sardinians who under terms of-peace Romans to-obey had-to ad rebellandum impellentēs. Vēnit tamen Rōmam lēgātiō Carthāginiēnsium et pācem towards rebelling inciting there-came however to-Rome embassy Carthaginian and peace impetrāvit.[2] it-obtained
[3] T. Mānliō Torquātō C. Atīliō Bulcō cōnsulibus dē Sardīs triumphātum est, et pāce omnibus With Titus Manlius Torquatus Gaius Atilius Bulcus consuls over Sardinians triumph-celebrated was and with-peace in-all locīs factā Rōmānī nūllum bellum habuērunt, quod hīs post Rōmam conditam semel tantum places established Romans no war had which to-them after Rome founded once only Numā Pompiliō rēgnante contigerat.[3] With-Numa Pompilius reigning had-happened
[4] L. Postumius Albīnus Cn. Fulvius Centumalus cōnsulēs bellum contrā Illyriōs gessērunt et Lucius Postumoius Albinus and Gnaeus Fulvius Centumalus consuls war against Illyrians waged and multīs cīvitātibus captīs etiam rēgēs in dēditiōnem accēpērunt. Ac tum prīmum ex Illyriīs with-many cities captured also kings into surrender received and then for-first-time over Illyrians triumphātum est.[4] triumph-celebrated was
[5] L. Aemiliō cōnsule ingentēs Gallōrum cōpiae Alpēs trānsiērunt. Sed prō Rōmānīs tōta With Lucius Aemilius consul huge of-Gauls forces Alps crossed but for -Romans all Ītalia cōnsēnsit, trāditumque est ā Fabiō historicō,[5] quī eī bellō interfuit, DCCC mīlia Italy was-united and—handed-down it-was by Fabius historian who in-that war took-part 800 thousands hominum parāta ad id bellum fuisse. Sed rēs per cōnsulem tantum prōsperē gesta est. XL of-men prepared for that war to-have-been but thing by consul alone successfully managed was 40 mīlia hostium interfecta sunt et triumphus Aemiliō dēcrētus.[6] thousands of-men killed were and triumph for-Aemilius decreed
NOTES [1] Lucius Cornelius Lentulus Caudinus and Quintus Fulvius Flaccus were consuls in 237. The Ligurians, who occupied territory in NE Italy and SW France, were heavily influenced by the Celts but may have been a distinct ethnic group. They attacked Ariminum (Rimini) with support from the Gallic Boii but the two groups turned on each other as the Romans approached. Despite the Roman victory that year, intermittent fighting with the Ligurians continued till 230. [2] Eutropius turns the truth on its head The Romans were in fact invited in 240 to take over Sardinia by mercenaries who had revolted against their Carthaginian employers and, though initially declining, they accepted a renewed invitation in 238 and annexed the island in 237.. The Carthaginians, faced also with war against their mercenaries in Africa, had to accept the loss of both Sardinia itself and Corsica, whose surrender had been demanded by Regulus in 256 but which had been left under Carthaginian control by the peace treaty. They also had to pay an additional indemnity, [3] The cessation of all wars was marked in 235 by the closing of the gates of the Temple of Janus in the forum. `Bulcus’ is a mistake for `Bulbus’. [4] In 229 B.C. the consuls fought against Teuta, widow of the chieftain who had united the Illyrian tribes along the eastern coast of the Adriatic, after she had refused to stop piracy against Roman and allied shipping. The Illyrians, who occupied former Yugoslavia and northern Albania, were culturally Indo-European but it is uncertain whether they had any sense of shared ethnicity, See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians [5] Quintus Fabius Pictor, probably born around 270 B.C, is the first Roman historian whose name is known to us. His account, which has not survived, was written in Greek and probably in an annalistic format, starting with Aeneas’s arrival in Italy. He was still active in public life at the start of the 2nd. Punic war. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintus_Fabius_Pictor [6] Not only Lucius Aemilius Papus but also his fellow consul for 225, Gaius Atilius Regulus was involved in the decisive battle at Telamon (modern Talamone) on the Etruscan coast. Regulus, who had returned hastily from Sardinia, was killed in the fighting. For a detailed account see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Telamon
[6] Aliquot deinde annīs post contrā Gallōs intrā Ītaliam pugnātum est, fīnītumque bellum Some then years later against Gauls within Italy fought it-was and-finished war M. Claudiō Mārcellō et Cn. Cornēliō Scīpiōne cōnsulibus. Tum Mārcellus cum parvā manū with-Marcus Claudius Marcellus and Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio consuls then Marcellus with small band equitum dīmicāvit et rēgem Gallōrum, Viridomarum nōmine, manū suā occīdit. Posteā cum of-cavalry fought and king of-Gauls Viridomarus by-name by-hand own he-killed afterwards with collēgā ingentēs cōpiās Gallōrum perēmit, Mediolānum expugnāvit, grandem praedam colleague huge forces of-Gauls he-destroyed Mediolanum took-by-storm vast booty Rōmam pertulit. Ac triumphāns Mārcellus spolia Gallī stīpitī inposita umerīs suīs vēxit.[1] to-Rome brought snd holding-tiumph Marcellus spoils of-the-Gaul on-stake placed on-shoulders his carried
[7] M. Minuciō Rūfō P. Cornēliō cōnsulibus Histrīs bellum inlātum est, quia latrōcinātī With Marcus Minuciud Rufus Publius Cornelio consuls on-Histri war made was because raided nāvibus Rōmānōrum fuerant, quae frūmenta exhibēbant, perdomitīque sunt omnēs.[2] Eōdem ships of-Romans they-had which corn were-providing and-subdued were all in-same annō bellum Pūnicum secundum Rōmānīs inlātum est per Hannibalem, Carthāginiēnsium year war Punic second upon-Romans brought was by Hannibal of-Carthaginians ducem, quī Saguntum, Hispāniae cīvitātem Rōmānīs amīcam, obpugnāre adgressūs est, general who Saguntum of-Spain state to-Romans friendly to-besiege advanced annum agēns vīcēsimum aetātis, cōpiīs congregātīs CL milium. Huic Rōmānī per lēgātōs year doing twentieth of-age with-forces assembled of-150 thousand to-whom Romans through envoys dēnūntiāvērunt, ut bellō abstinēret. Is lēgātōs admittere nōluit. Rōmānī etiam Carthāginem demanded that from-war he-should-abstain he enoys to-receive was-unwilling Romans also to-Carthage mīsērunt, ut mandārētur Hannibalī, nē bellum contrā sociōs populī Rōmānī gereret. Dūra sent that order-be-give to-Hannibal that-not war aginst allies of-people Roman he-should-wage harsh respōnsa ā Carthāginiēnsibus data sunt. Saguntīnī intereā famē vīctī sunt, captīque ab replies by Carthaginians given were Saguntians meanwhile by-hunger beaten were and-captured by Hannibale ultimīs poenīs adficiuntur.[3] Hannibal to-ultimate punishments are subjected
[8] Tum P. Cornēlius Scīpiō cum exercitū in Hispāniam profectus est, Ti. Semprōnius in Then Publius Cornelius Scipio with army for Spain set out Tiberius Sempronius for Siciliam, bellum Carthāginiēnsibus indictum est. Hannibal relictō in Hispāniā frātre Sicily war against-Carthaginians declared was Hannibal having-been-left in Spain brother Hasdrubale Pȳrēnaeum trānsiit. Alpēs, adhūc eā parte inviās, sibi patefēcit. Trāditur ad Ītaliam Hasdrubal Pyrenees crossed Alps till-then in-that-part trackless to-himself laid-open he-is-reported to Italy
NOTES [1] The key battle was fought in 222 at Clastidium (the modern village of Casteggio) about 30 miles west of Placentia (Piacenza) in the Po Valley against the Gallic Insubres and mercenaries from the Gasaetae tribe from across the Alps, who had also fought at Telamon. Marcellus was the last Roman commander to earn the spolia optima, i.e arms etc. won by single-handedly killing the enemy commander. Mediolānum is modern Milan. [2] This war was fought against 221 B.C. against the ruler of the island of Pharos off the Dalmatian coast, a Roman ally who had recommenced raids on shipping. Pharos (modern Hvar) was a Greek colony but the (H)Istrians were probably an Illyrian people. They have given their name to the peninsula of Istria at the head of the Adriatic (see map on pg,2) but their area may have extended further south at this time. Istria is now largely in Croatia, with the area around Trieste belonging to Italy and another small area to Slovenia [3] Eutropius puts the events of three years into one. Hannibal took command of Carthaginian forces in Spain in 221, when he was already 25. Saguntum was well south of the River Ebro, which Carthage had agreed to accept as the northern limit of their expansion but the Romans accepted its appeal for an alliance and in 220-19 ordered Hannibal not to interfere in the Saguntians’ dispute with a tribe under Carthaginian control. After Hannibal’s capture in 219 of the city, whose inhabitants he enslaved, and Carthage’s refusal to hand him over, Rome declared war in March 218. See Bird for further details.
LXXX mīlia peditum, X mīlia equitum, septem et XXX elephantōs addūxisse. Intereā multī 80 thousand of-infantry 10 thousands of-cavalry seven and 30 elephants to-have-brought meanwhile many Ligurēs et Gallī Hannibalī sē coniūnxērunt.[1] Semprōnius Gracchus cognitō ad Ītaliam Ligurians and Gauls to-Hannibal themselves joined Sempronius Gracchis having-been-learned-of in Italy Hannibalis adventū ex Siciliā exercitum Arīminum trāiēcit. Hannibal’s arrival from Sicily army to-Rimini transferred
[9] P. Cornēlius Scīpiō Hannibalī prīmus occurrit. Commissō proeliō, fugātīs suīs Publius Cornelius Scipio Hannibal first met having-been-started-battle having-been-routed his-men ipse vulnerātus in castra rediit. Semprōnius Gracchus et ipse cōnflīgit apud Trebiam amnem. himself wounded into camp returned Sempronius Gracchus also himself fought at Trebia river Is quoque vincitur.[2]Hannibalī multī sē in Ītaliā dēdidērunt. Inde ad Tusciam veniēns Hannibal He also is-defeated to-Hannibal many selves in Italy surrendered then to Tuscany coming Hannibal Flāminiō cōnsulī occurrit. Ipsum Flāminium interēmit; Rōmānōrum XXV mīlia caesa sunt, Flaminius consul encountered himself Flaminius he-killed of-Romans 25 thousand killed were cēterī dīffūgērunt.[3] Missus adversus Hannibalem posteā ā Rōmānīs Q. Fabius Maximus. Is rest scattered sent against Hannibal afterwards by Romans Quintus Fabius Maximus He eum differendō pugnam ab impetū frēgit, mox inventā occāsiōne vīcit.[4] him by-postponing battle from momentum broke soon with-found opportunity defeated
[10] Quīngentēsimō et quadrāgēsimō annō ā conditā[5] urbe L. Aemilius Paulus P. Terentius In-the-five-hundredth and fortieth year from founded city Lucius Aemilius Paulus Publius Terentius Varrō contrā Hannibalem mittuntur Fabiōque succēdunt, quī abiēns ambō cōnsulēs monuit, ut Varro against Hannibal are-sent and-Fabius succeed who departing both consuls warned that Hannibalem, callidum et inpatientem ducem, nōn aliter vincerent, quam proelium differendō. Hannibal clever and impatient general not otherwise they-would-defeat than battle by-postponing Vērum cum inpatientiā Varrōnis cōnsulis contrādīcente alterō cōnsule [id est Aemiliō Paulō] Indeed when through- impatience of-Varro consul expressing-disagreement other consul that is Aemilius Paulus apud vīcum, quī Cannae appellātur in Āpūliā, pugnātum esset, ambō cōnsulēs ab Hannibale at village which Cannae is-called in Apulia fighting there-was both consuls by Hannibal vincuntur. In eā pugnā tria mīlia Āfrōrum pereunt; magna pars dē exercitū Hannibalis are-defeated in that battle three thousands of-Africans perish great part from army of-Hannibal sauciātur. Nūllō tamen proeliō Pūnicō bellō Rōmānī gravius acceptī sunt.[6] Periit enim in eō is-wounded in-no however battle in-Punuic war Romans more-gravely suffered perished for in it cōnsul Aemilius Paulus, cōnsulārēs aut praetōriī XX, senātōrēs captī aut occīsī XXX, nōbilēs consul Aemilius Paulus ex-consuls or ex-praetors 20 senators captureds or killed 30 noble virī CCC, mīlitum XL mīlia, equitum IIĪ mīlia et quīngentī. In quibus malīs nēmō tamen men 300 of-soldiers 40 thousands of-cavalry 3 thousands and five-hundred amidst these evils none however Rōmānōrum pācis mentiōnem habēre dignātus est. Servī, quod numquam ante, of-Romans of-peace mention to-make thought fit slaves something-that never before [had happened] manūmissī et mīlitēs factī sunt. freed and soildiers made
NOTES [1] Hannibal reached Italy in autumn 2018. All figures for Hannibal’s forces are unreliable but Polybius (III.56) states only 20,000 infantry and 6,000 cavalry survived the march. Many Ligurians and Gauls joined him out of resentment of Rome’s recent expansion into the Po Valley. [2] For details of the Roman defeats in the Po valley in the cavalry engagement at the Ticinus and at the Trebia in 218 see the notes on Ad Alpes, chapter 36 (at https://linguae.weebly.com/ad-alpes.html). Eutropius implies that Sempronius fought Hannibal alone at Trebia but, although accounts of the battle are confused, at least some of Scipio’s army were also involved. [3] For the ambush of the Roman army at Lake Trasimene in 217 see Ad Alpes chapter31. [4] Quintus Fabius Maximus Cunctator (`The Delayer’) was appointed dictator after Trasimene, helped recover Clusium (modern Chiusi) in Etruria in 214 and then retook Tarentum (Taranto) on the south coast in 209 [5] 540 A.U.C is 214 B.C. but the battle, which Varro insisted on fighting against Paulus’s wishes, took place in 216. See Ad Alpes, chapter 17 for further details. [6] Literally `were treated’.