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​QUESTIONS ARISING FROM 174th. MEETING – 24/10/25
(the record of earlier meetings can be downloaded from the main Circulus page as can the version of Ciceronis Filius with illustrations added. The illustrated texts of other works covered in meetings are on the pages for  Genesis,  Somnium (Kepler), Ad Alpes (Nutting), Suetonius (lives of Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius and Vespasian) and Ilias Latina.

Food ordered at the Basmati included cicera aromatica (chana masala), spināchia cum caseō (palak paneer), turundae gallināceae (chicken momos), ocrum arōmaticum (bhindi masala), biriānia gallinācea (chicken biryani) and caseus fervēns (sizzling paneer), together with the usual pānis Persicus (naan), orȳza (rice) and vīnum rubrum.

​Asked about his current project, Pat told us that he was putting together collection of some of his own papers with others by another veteran administrator-turned historian, the late James Hayes.  The most recent of Pat’s previous publications is Villages and Market Towns in Hong Kong (2024) while Hayes’ best-known work is probably his last monograph, The Great Difference: Hong Kong’s New Territories and its People, 1898-2004, published in 2006.  Britain obtained its 99-year lease on the New Territories in 1898 but actually assumed control only the following year, meeting with brief resistance from some of the villagers, a conflict described by Pat in The Six Day War of 1899: Hong Kong in the Age of Imperialism (2008).
​
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Joe, who is both a linguist and a Lamma resident, brought up the tricky question of the origin of the island’s name.  The commonest theory is that an early Portuguese chart had the word lama (mud) printed near the island, referring to the nature of the sea bed at that point. A British chart maker then supposedly reinterpreted the word as the island’s name and an additional `l’ was somehow added later, with the Chinese name, 南丫島 (naam4 aa1 dou2), combining both a transliteration of the English (`l’ and `n’ are often interchanged in Cantonese) and a reference to the island’ shape.   Alternatively, of course, the English might simply have been derived from the Chinese. To make matters even more complicated, the name back in the Tang dynasty (618-907) appears to have been 舶寮洲 Chau (baak3 liu4 zau1, `foreigners’ docking place’). There is further discussion at https://www.facebook.com/groups/LammaIslandGroup/posts/10159149753497011/  This posting includes an 1810 map with the `Lama’ spelling and a Chinese transliteration which appears to read 藍 麻 (laam4 maa4).  The same map also transliterates `Hong Kong’ as 紅江 (hung4 gong1, `red river’), so one suspects either a foreigner or a non-local Chinese was just producing his own versions of the English without reference to what the locals actually called places at that time.
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​                                              The "Macau Roads Map" (Philip Maughan), drawn in 1810
 
Still on the linguistic front, we briefly discussed the tendency for languages to be simplified over time, probably because if a large number of non-native-speakers have to learn the language as adults, complications are likely to be jettisoned in favour of quicker communication. This is commonly held to a be a reason for the loss of most inflexions in English, as the Norse-speaking Vikings fused with the Old English speakers, and of noun inflexions in Latin as the barbarians poured across the borders of the old Roman Empire. Joe suggested there were counter-examples in the development of irregular plurals in English. There is also, of course, the disruption of the number system in many of the modern languages of South Asia: in Sanskrit, `five’ is pancha, `twenty’ is vimsati and `twenty-five is quite logically pancha-vimsati but the derived Nepali forms are paanch, bīs and pachīs.   An interesting video relevant to this question is `Swine Herd’s’ `Do languages get more analytic over time? Do they get simpler?’ at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxOJ4p8e7NQ  This is well worth watching, seapite the embarrassing mistake of using singular nostrā with plural domibus.
 
One of us needed a recommendation for a good translation of Dante’s Divine Comedy. Subsequent enquiry
suggested that, if you want scholarly notes and background essays, a good choice is a recent translation by Robert Durling - see https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Comedy-Dante-Alighieri-Inferno/dp/0195087445 . which has a prose translation with the Italian original on facing pages which he values for its very thorough notes and background essays. If you just want English, John Ciardi’s rhyming verse, which attempts to reproduce some of Dante’s style - https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Comedy-Inferno-Purgatorio-Paradiso/dp/0451208633- might be a good bet. Ciardi has the additional advantage of Inferno, Pugatorio and Paradiso all in one volume,
 
Lily and Charles asked where the Latin Mass could be heard in Hong Kong. A subsequent check with Eugene reveals that this is held every Sunday at 12.30 at Mary Help of Christians Church (inside Tang King Po School, 16 Tin Kwong Road, Ma Tau Wai). Scripture readings and sermon are in English or Cantonese but the main part of the Mass, including sung sections, is in Latin. There are further details at https://tridentine.catholic.org.hk/
 
We read lines 449-508 in Ilias Latina (see text below). A couple of weeks after the meeting, John completed the interlinear translation of the whole work, which is available at https://linguae.weebly.com/ilias-latina.html  By coincidence, he discovered a few days later that a new edition of the poem, with Latin text, translation and commentary was published earlier this year. The editor, Stephen Green, studied for his first degree at the Univerity of Nottingham, John’s own home town and is now a professor at the National University of Singapore. At 9.00 pm On 10 December, he will be speaking in a Durham University on-line research seminar on `Turnings, Misattributions, and Cultural Hybridity: The Poetics of Translation in the Ilias Latina.’  Hillary has kindly provided the Microsoft  Teams link for registration: https://events.teams.microsoft.com/event/6683053c-7887-4d8c-97e2-49ef2a2a86dc@7250d88b-4b68-4529-be44-d59a2d8a6f94    Go to https://www.academia.edu/130048789/Review_of_Ilias_Latina_Green_ for an appreciative review of Green’s book.
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ILIAS LATINA, 409-508
 
Tū quoque Tȳdīdae prōstrātus, Pandare, dextrā                                        
You    also         of-Tydides   laid-low             Pandarus     by-right-hand
occidis, īnfēlīx, acceptō vulnere trīstī,                                                        450
you-fall     unlucky-one with-received  wound   sad
dextera quā nāris frontī coniungitur īmae;
right          where  nostril  forehead  is-joined         to-base-of
dissipat et cerebrum  galeae cum parte revulsum
he-scatters also       brain     of-helmet   with    part    torn-out
ossaque cōnfossa spargit Tȳdīdeus ēnsis.
And-bones    dug-out        scatters      of-Tydides  sword
Iamque manum Aenēās simul et Calydōnius hērōs
And-now     their- hand    Aeneas   at-same-time and  Calydonian hero  
contulerant, iactīs                    inter sē comminus    hastīs;           455
had-brought-together having-been-hurled between them  at-close-quarters spears
undique rīmābant inimīcō corpora ferrō,
from-all-sides they-were-probing with-hostile [each-other’s] bodies  iron
et modo             cēdēbant retrō, modo deinde coībant.
And  at-one-moment  they-were-falling-back   at-another-then they-were-converging      
Postquam utrīque diū steterant nec vulnera magnus
After                 both    for-a-long-time had-stood and-not wounds   great
quā daret īnfēstō Tȳdīdēs ēnse vidēbat,
where  he-could-give aggressive Tydides with-sword  saw
saxum ingēns mediō quod forte iacēbat in agrō,                              460
rock         huge        middle-of which by-chance was-lying in  field
bis sēnī quod vix iuvenēs tellūre movērent,
twice  six    which   scarcely youths from-ground could-move
sustulit et magnō cōnāmine mīsit in hostem.
he-lifted-up and with-great   effort       sent   onto   enemy
Ille ruit prōstrātus humī cum fortibus armīs,
He     collapsed  prostrate on-ground with his-strong armour
quem Venus aetheriās genetrīx dēlāpsa per aurās                          
whom      Venus   etherial          mother      having-glided-down through  breezes               
accipit et nigrā corpus cālīgine condit.                                            465
Receives and in-black   body       mist       buries
 
Pandare: Panadarus was the Zeleian leader who broke the truce by shooting Agamemnon (see on line 239 and 346)
Aenēās: the son of the Trojan Anchises and of Venus. Anchises was a 3rd cousin of Priam, both being descended from Tros, who founded the Trojan kingdom. See the family tree at  https://www.greekmyths-interpretation.com/en/priam-hector-paris-family-tree/
 
Nōn tulit Oenīdēs animō nebulāsque per ipsās
Not    tolerated    descendant-of-Oineus  in-mind and-clouds through themselves
fertur et in Venerem flagrantibus irruit armīs,
is-carried and upon Venus     with-flashing     rushes    weapons
et neque quem   dēmēns ferrō     petat īnspicit arvīs
ans  neither    whom     in-madness with-iron he-is-attacking he-sees upon the plain
caelestemque manum mortālī vulnerat hastā.
and-celestial          hand           with-mortal  he-wounds  spear
Icta petit caelum terrīs Cytherēa relictīs                                               470
struck makes-for heaven with-earth Cytherea abandoned
atque ibi sīdereae queritur sua vulnera mātrī.
and      there   starry    complains-of her     wounds to-mother
Dardanium Aenēān servat Troiānus Apollō
Dardanian        Aeneas         saves       Trojan       Apollo
accenditque animōs iterumque ad bella redūcit.
And-fires-up     courage        and-again     to      wars    brings-back
Undique cōnsurgunt aciēs et pulvere caelum
And-from-all-sides  rise-up     armies  and   in-dust     sky
conditur horrendīsque sonat clāmōribus aether.                        475
is-buried       and-frightful        resounds     with-shouts             air
Hīc alius rapidō dēiectus in aequora currū
Here    one  from-rapid  thrown-down onto   plain  chariot
prōteritur pedibusque simul calcātur equōrum
is-crushed       and-by-feet    at- same-time is-trampled  of-horses
atque alius volucrī trāiectus corpora tēlō
and      another   by-flying  transfixed  through-body   spear
 
Oenīdēs: Diomedes, who was the grandson of Oineus, King of Calydon in Aetolia.
fertur: Diomedes is carried along by his own rage and ímpetus.
arvīs: plural for singular. The basic meaning of arvum is arable field, but it can also refer to dry or level land in general
Cytherēa: i.e.Venus (see note on l.309)
sīderae…mātrī: referring to Dione, whom Homer and some other sources make Venus’s mother. However, Hesiod has Aphrodite (Venus) born from the severed genitals of Chronos after he was castrated by his son Zeus. Dione was the daughter either of Uranus (the sky) and Gaia (the earth) and thus herself a Titan, or of the Titans Oceanus and Tethys, and so an Oceanid. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dione_(Titaness)
 
quadrupedis tergō prōnus ruit; illius ēnse
of-four-horse-chariot from-rear on-face falls of-that-one by-sword
dēiectum longē caput ā cervīce cucurrit;                                    480
cut-off              far-off    head  from neck      has-run
hic iacet exanimis fūsō super arma cerebrō:
this-one lies lifeless        with-spilled over  weapons   brain
sanguine mānat humus, campī sūdōre madēscunt.
with-blood      runs       earth          plains    with-sweat  are-drenched
Ēmicat intereā Veneris pulcherrima prōlēs
Darts-forth   meanwhile  Venus’s    most-handsome   offspring
dēnsaque Grāiōrum premit agmina nūdaque lātē
and-dense      of-Greeks      he-presses   ranks     and-bare    broadly
terga   metit      gladiō fūnestaque proelia miscet.                        485
backs  he-mows-down with-sword  and deadly   battles  fights-in-succession
Nec cessat spēs ūna Phrygum fortissimus Hector
Nor      ceases  hope the-one   of-Phrygians  most-brave Hector
sternere caede virōs atque agmina vertere Grāium.
to-lay-low  in-slaughter men  and      ranks         to-turn-to-flight of-Greeks
Ut lupus in campīs pecudēs cum vīdit apertīs
As    wolf     on    plains        herds     when    he-has-seen  open
(nōn āctor gregis ipse, comes nōn horrida terret
not      driver    of-herd  himself   accompanying not horrible frightens
turba canum), fremit ēsuriēns et neglegit omnēs                          490
pack      of-dogs      he-roars   in-hunger  and  disregards   all
in mediōsque gregēs avidus ruit, haud secus Hector
into   and-midst-of     herd        greedy     rushes   not   otherwise Hector
 
illius: referring to a third man and to be taken with caput rather than ēnse
hic: referring to a fourth warrior.
Veneris pulcherrima prōlēs: Aeneas.
nūda..terga: Greek warriors often wore a breastplate but their backs were unprotected.
miscet: literally ‘mixes’
 
invādit Danaōs          et territat ēnse cruentō.
assaults  the-Danaans (Greeks) and frightens with-sord bloody
Dēficiunt Grāiōrum aciēs, Phryges       ācrius                 īnstant
Fail               of-Greeks         ranks      Phrygians (Trojans) more-keenly  press-on
attolluntque animōs: geminat victōria vīrēs.
and-raise            spirits           doubles    victory         strength
Ut vīdit sociōs īnfēstō        cēdere Mārte,                                  495
when he-seems comrades with-unfavourable to-give-way  Mars
rēx Danaum sublīmis equō volat agmina circum
king    of-Danaans    high        upon-horse flies  columns   around
hortāturque ducēs animōsque in proelia firmat.
and-encourages  leaders    and-spirita     for    battles    strengthens
Mox ipse in mediōs audāx sē prōripit hostēs
Soon    himself into  midst-of bold[-ly]  self  propels  enemy
oppositāsque aciēs strictō dīverberat ēnse.
And-opposite         ranks    with-drawn  he-sunders sword
Ut Libycus cum forte leō procul agmina vīdit                            500
As     Libyan     when   by-chance lion in-distance columns  sees
laeta boum passim viridēs errāre per herbās,
happy   of-cattle  in-all-directions  greeb   to-wander through grass
attollit cervīce iubās sitiēnsque cruōris
raises       from-neck    mane    and-thirsting   for-blood
in mediam ērēctō contendit pectore turbam,
into    midst-of  with-held-high rushes   chest        herd
sīc ferus Atrīdēs adversōs fertur in hostēs
thus   wild     son-of-Atreus facing    is-borne  into enemies
 
Phryges: with the Greek 3rd, declension nominative plural termination -es instead of  the regular Latin -ēs.
infestō..Marte: alternatively the name of the god of war simply represents war itself, so the phrase would mean `amidst dangerous war’
rēx Danaum: Agamemnon. The shorter form Danaum is frequently found in place of regular Danaōrum,
 
īnfēstāsque Phrygum prōturbat cuspide turmās.            505
and-hostile       of-Phrygians   he-confounds with-spear  squadrons
Virtūs clāra ducis       vīrēs accendit Achīvum
Courage   conspicuous of-leader  strength  sets-on-fire of-Achaeans
et spēs exacuit languentia mīlitis        arma:
and hope    revives    the-sluggish   of-[Greek]-soldier weapons
funduntur Teucrī, Danaī laetantur ovantēs.                    
are-routed     Teucrii {Trojans} the Danaans are-happy rejoicing
 
cuspide: cuspis is strictly speaking a pointed end but was frequently used to refer to a whole spear.
Achīvum: for regular Achīvōrum. Latin Achīvī derives from early Greek Ἀχαιϝοί (Achaiwoi), which, with the loss of the digamma (ϝ), became  Ἀχαιοί (Achaioi), Homer’s commonest name for the Greeks as a whole. By the 5th century B.C., the Greeks themselves used Ἀχαία and Ἀχαιοί just for the North central region of the Peloponnese and its inhabitants. Later, Achaia (Achaea) l became the name for the Roman province including the Peloponnese and a small section of Northern Greece.
Aeneān: Greek accusative of Aenēās
Atrīdēs: Agamemnon rather than his brother Menelaus
 
 
 
 
 
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