QUESTIONS ARISING FROM 174th. MEETING – 24/10/25 (the record of earlier meetings can be downloaded from the main Circulus page as can the version of Ciceronis Filius with illustrations added. The illustrated texts of other works covered in meetings are on the pages for Genesis, Somnium (Kepler), Ad Alpes (Nutting), Suetonius (lives of Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius and Vespasian) and Ilias Latina.
Food ordered at the Basmati included cicera aromatica (chana masala), spināchia cum caseō (palak paneer), turundae gallināceae (chicken momos), ocrum arōmaticum (bhindi masala), biriānia gallinācea (chicken biryani) and caseus fervēns (sizzling paneer), together with the usual pānis Persicus (naan), orȳza (rice) and vīnum rubrum.
Asked about his current project, Pat told us that he was putting together collection of some of his own papers with others by another veteran administrator-turned historian, the late James Hayes. The most recent of Pat’s previous publications is Villages and Market Towns in Hong Kong (2024) while Hayes’ best-known work is probably his last monograph, The Great Difference: Hong Kong’s New Territories and its People, 1898-2004, published in 2006. Britain obtained its 99-year lease on the New Territories in 1898 but actually assumed control only the following year, meeting with brief resistance from some of the villagers, a conflict described by Pat in The Six Day War of 1899: Hong Kong in the Age of Imperialism (2008).
Joe, who is both a linguist and a Lamma resident, brought up the tricky question of the origin of the island’s name. The commonest theory is that an early Portuguese chart had the word lama (mud) printed near the island, referring to the nature of the sea bed at that point. A British chart maker then supposedly reinterpreted the word as the island’s name and an additional `l’ was somehow added later, with the Chinese name, 南丫島 (naam4 aa1 dou2), combining both a transliteration of the English (`l’ and `n’ are often interchanged in Cantonese) and a reference to the island’ shape. Alternatively, of course, the English might simply have been derived from the Chinese. To make matters even more complicated, the name back in the Tang dynasty (618-907) appears to have been 舶寮洲 Chau (baak3 liu4 zau1, `foreigners’ docking place’). There is further discussion at https://www.facebook.com/groups/LammaIslandGroup/posts/10159149753497011/ This posting includes an 1810 map with the `Lama’ spelling and a Chinese transliteration which appears to read 藍 麻 (laam4maa4). The same map also transliterates `Hong Kong’ as 紅江 (hung4 gong1, `red river’), so one suspects either a foreigner or a non-local Chinese was just producing his own versions of the English without reference to what the locals actually called places at that time.
The "Macau Roads Map" (Philip Maughan), drawn in 1810
Still on the linguistic front, we briefly discussed the tendency for languages to be simplified over time, probably because if a large number of non-native-speakers have to learn the language as adults, complications are likely to be jettisoned in favour of quicker communication. This is commonly held to a be a reason for the loss of most inflexions in English, as the Norse-speaking Vikings fused with the Old English speakers, and of noun inflexions in Latin as the barbarians poured across the borders of the old Roman Empire. Joe suggested there were counter-examples in the development of irregular plurals in English. There is also, of course, the disruption of the number system in many of the modern languages of South Asia: in Sanskrit, `five’ is pancha, `twenty’ is vimsati and `twenty-five is quite logically pancha-vimsati but the derived Nepali forms are paanch, bīs and pachīs. An interesting video relevant to this question is `Swine Herd’s’ `Do languages get more analytic over time? Do they get simpler?’ at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxOJ4p8e7NQ This is well worth watching, seapite the embarrassing mistake of using singular nostrā with plural domibus.
One of us needed a recommendation for a good translation of Dante’s Divine Comedy. Subsequent enquiry suggested that, if you want scholarly notes and background essays, a good choice is a recent translation by Robert Durling - see https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Comedy-Dante-Alighieri-Inferno/dp/0195087445 . which has a prose translation with the Italian original on facing pages which he values for its very thorough notes and background essays. If you just want English, John Ciardi’s rhyming verse, which attempts to reproduce some of Dante’s style - https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Comedy-Inferno-Purgatorio-Paradiso/dp/0451208633- might be a good bet. Ciardi has the additional advantage of Inferno, Pugatorio and Paradiso all in one volume,
Lily and Charles asked where the Latin Mass could be heard in Hong Kong. A subsequent check with Eugene reveals that this is held every Sunday at 12.30 at Mary Help of Christians Church (inside Tang King Po School, 16 Tin Kwong Road, Ma Tau Wai). Scripture readings and sermon are in English or Cantonese but the main part of the Mass, including sung sections, is in Latin. There are further details at https://tridentine.catholic.org.hk/
We read lines 449-508 in Ilias Latina (see text below). A couple of weeks after the meeting, John completed the interlinear translation of the whole work, which is available at https://linguae.weebly.com/ilias-latina.html By coincidence, he discovered a few days later that a new edition of the poem, with Latin text, translation and commentary was published earlier this year. The editor, Stephen Green, studied for his first degree at the Univerity of Nottingham, John’s own home town and is now a professor at the National University of Singapore. At 9.00 pm On 10 December, he will be speaking in a Durham University on-line research seminar on `Turnings, Misattributions, and Cultural Hybridity: The Poetics of Translation in the Ilias Latina.’ Hillary has kindly provided the Microsoft Teams link for registration: https://events.teams.microsoft.com/event/6683053c-7887-4d8c-97e2-49ef2a2a86dc@7250d88b-4b68-4529-be44-d59a2d8a6f94 Go to https://www.academia.edu/130048789/Review_of_Ilias_Latina_Green_ for an appreciative review of Green’s book.
ILIAS LATINA, 409-508
Tū quoque Tȳdīdae prōstrātus, Pandare, dextrā You also of-Tydides laid-low Pandarus by-right-hand occidis, īnfēlīx, acceptō vulnere trīstī, 450 you-fall unlucky-one with-received wound sad dextera quā nāris frontī coniungitur īmae; right where nostril forehead is-joined to-base-of dissipat et cerebrum galeae cum parte revulsum he-scatters also brain of-helmet with part torn-out ossaque cōnfossa spargit Tȳdīdeus ēnsis. And-bones dug-out scatters of-Tydides sword Iamque manum Aenēās simul et Calydōnius hērōs And-now their- hand Aeneas at-same-time and Calydonian hero contulerant, iactīs inter sē comminus hastīs; 455 had-brought-together having-been-hurled between them at-close-quarters spears undique rīmābant inimīcō corpora ferrō, from-all-sides they-were-probing with-hostile [each-other’s] bodies iron et modo cēdēbant retrō, modo deinde coībant. And at-one-moment they-were-falling-back at-another-then they-were-converging Postquam utrīque diū steterant nec vulnera magnus After both for-a-long-time had-stood and-not wounds great quā daret īnfēstōTȳdīdēsēnse vidēbat, where he-could-give aggressive Tydides with-sword saw saxum ingēns mediō quod forte iacēbat in agrō, 460 rock huge middle-of which by-chance was-lying in field bis sēnī quod vix iuvenēs tellūre movērent, twice six which scarcely youths from-ground could-move sustulit et magnō cōnāmine mīsit in hostem. he-lifted-up and with-great effort sent onto enemy Ille ruit prōstrātus humī cum fortibus armīs, He collapsed prostrate on-ground with his-strong armour quem Venus aetheriās genetrīx dēlāpsa per aurās whom Venus etherial mother having-glided-down through breezes accipit et nigrā corpus cālīgine condit. 465 Receives and in-black body mist buries
Pandare: Panadarus was the Zeleian leader who broke the truce by shooting Agamemnon (see on line 239 and 346) Aenēās: the son of the Trojan Anchises and of Venus. Anchises was a 3rd cousin of Priam, both being descended from Tros, who founded the Trojan kingdom. See the family tree at https://www.greekmyths-interpretation.com/en/priam-hector-paris-family-tree/
Nōn tulit Oenīdēs animō nebulāsque per ipsās Not tolerated descendant-of-Oineus in-mind and-clouds through themselves fertur et in Venerem flagrantibus irruit armīs, is-carried and upon Venus with-flashing rushes weapons et neque quem dēmēns ferrō petat īnspicit arvīs ans neither whom in-madness with-iron he-is-attacking he-sees upon the plain caelestemque manum mortālī vulnerat hastā. and-celestial hand with-mortal he-wounds spear Icta petit caelum terrīsCytherēarelictīs 470 struck makes-for heaven with-earth Cytherea abandoned atque ibi sīdereae queritur sua vulnera mātrī. and there starry complains-of her wounds to-mother Dardanium Aenēān servat Troiānus Apollō Dardanian Aeneas saves Trojan Apollo accenditque animōs iterumque ad bella redūcit. And-fires-up courage and-again to wars brings-back Undique cōnsurgunt aciēs et pulvere caelum And-from-all-sides rise-up armies and in-dust sky conditur horrendīsque sonat clāmōribus aether. 475 is-buried and-frightful resounds with-shouts air Hīc alius rapidō dēiectus in aequora currū Here one from-rapid thrown-down onto plain chariot prōteritur pedibusque simul calcātur equōrum is-crushed and-by-feet at- same-time is-trampled of-horses atque alius volucrī trāiectus corpora tēlō and another by-flying transfixed through-body spear
Oenīdēs: Diomedes, who was the grandson of Oineus, King of Calydon in Aetolia. fertur: Diomedes is carried along by his own rage and ímpetus. arvīs: plural for singular. The basic meaning of arvum is arable field, but it can also refer to dry or level land in general Cytherēa: i.e.Venus (see note on l.309) sīderae…mātrī: referring to Dione, whom Homer and some other sources make Venus’s mother. However, Hesiod has Aphrodite (Venus) born from the severed genitals of Chronos after he was castrated by his son Zeus. Dione was the daughter either of Uranus (the sky) and Gaia (the earth) and thus herself a Titan, or of the Titans Oceanus and Tethys, and so an Oceanid. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dione_(Titaness)
quadrupedis tergō prōnus ruit; illius ēnse of-four-horse-chariot from-rear on-face falls of-that-one by-sword dēiectum longē caput ā cervīce cucurrit; 480 cut-off far-off head from neck has-run hic iacet exanimis fūsō super arma cerebrō: this-one lies lifeless with-spilled over weapons brain sanguine mānat humus, campī sūdōre madēscunt. with-blood runs earth plains with-sweat are-drenched Ēmicat intereā Veneris pulcherrima prōlēs Darts-forth meanwhile Venus’s most-handsome offspring dēnsaque Grāiōrum premit agminanūdaque lātē and-dense of-Greeks he-presses ranks and-bare broadly terga metit gladiō fūnestaque proelia miscet. 485 backs he-mows-down with-sword and deadly battles fights-in-succession Nec cessat spēs ūna Phrygum fortissimus Hector Nor ceases hope the-one of-Phrygians most-brave Hector sternere caede virōs atque agmina vertere Grāium. to-lay-low in-slaughter men and ranks to-turn-to-flight of-Greeks Ut lupus in campīs pecudēs cum vīdit apertīs As wolf on plains herds when he-has-seen open (nōn āctor gregis ipse, comes nōn horrida terret not driver of-herd himself accompanying not horrible frightens turba canum), fremit ēsuriēns et neglegit omnēs 490 pack of-dogs he-roars in-hunger and disregards all in mediōsque gregēs avidus ruit, haud secus Hector into and-midst-of herd greedy rushes not otherwise Hector
illius: referring to a third man and to be taken with caput rather than ēnse hic: referring to a fourth warrior. Veneris pulcherrima prōlēs: Aeneas. nūda..terga: Greek warriors often wore a breastplate but their backs were unprotected. miscet: literally ‘mixes’
invādit Danaōs et territat ēnse cruentō. assaults the-Danaans (Greeks) and frightens with-sord bloody Dēficiunt Grāiōrum aciēs, Phryges ācrius īnstant Fail of-Greeks ranks Phrygians (Trojans) more-keenly press-on attolluntque animōs: geminat victōria vīrēs. and-raise spirits doubles victory strength Ut vīdit sociōs īnfēstō cēdere Mārte, 495 when he-seems comrades with-unfavourable to-give-way Mars rēx Danaum sublīmis equō volat agmina circum king of-Danaans high upon-horse flies columns around hortāturque ducēs animōsque in proelia firmat. and-encourages leaders and-spirita for battles strengthens Mox ipse in mediōs audāx sē prōripit hostēs Soon himself into midst-of bold[-ly] self propels enemy oppositāsque aciēs strictō dīverberat ēnse. And-opposite ranks with-drawn he-sunders sword Ut Libycus cum forte leō procul agmina vīdit 500 As Libyan when by-chance lion in-distance columns sees laeta boum passim viridēs errāre per herbās, happy of-cattle in-all-directions greeb to-wander through grass attollit cervīce iubās sitiēnsque cruōris raises from-neck mane and-thirsting for-blood in mediamērēctō contendit pectoreturbam, into midst-of with-held-high rushes chest herd sīc ferus Atrīdēs adversōs fertur in hostēs thus wild son-of-Atreus facing is-borne into enemies
Phryges: with the Greek 3rd, declension nominative plural termination -es instead of the regular Latin -ēs. infestō..Marte: alternatively the name of the god of war simply represents war itself, so the phrase would mean `amidst dangerous war’ rēx Danaum: Agamemnon. The shorter form Danaum is frequently found in place of regular Danaōrum,
cuspide: cuspis is strictly speaking a pointed end but was frequently used to refer to a whole spear. Achīvum: for regular Achīvōrum. Latin Achīvī derives from early Greek Ἀχαιϝοί (Achaiwoi), which, with the loss of the digamma (ϝ), became Ἀχαιοί (Achaioi), Homer’s commonest name for the Greeks as a whole. By the 5th century B.C., the Greeks themselves used Ἀχαία and Ἀχαιοί just for the North central region of the Peloponnese and its inhabitants. Later, Achaia (Achaea) l became the name for the Roman province including the Peloponnese and a small section of Northern Greece. Aeneān: Greek accusative of Aenēās Atrīdēs: Agamemnon rather than his brother Menelaus