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QUESTIONS ARISING FROM 80th. MEETING – 7/7/17
(the record of earlier meetings can be downloaded from the main Circulus page as can the version of Ciceronis Filius with illustrations added. The illustrated text of Genesis is available on the Genesis page) 

Stella mentioned that this year was the 20th anniversary not only of the establishment of the Hong Kong SAR but also of the publication of the first novel in the Harry Potter series, which Stella herself had celebrated by purchasing the Latin version: Harrius Potter et Philosophi Lapis. The translator, Peter Needham, who confessed to not having read any of the books before he got the job, had previously taught Latin at Eton College. Needham later translated the second novel, Harrius Potter et Camerra Secretorum. There is in fact a well-established tradition of producing Latin versions of classic children’s stories, examples including Winnie Ille Pu and Alicia in Terra Mirabili and J.K. Rowling, who herself studied the language up to the end of her first year of university, was keen to have some of her own work similarly treated. John mentioned that the first Harry Potter book has also been brought out in Ancient Greek but confessed that, though he had had this on his shelves for many years, he was yet to read it through.
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There was a question about the Latin translation of the Harry Potter spells. John explained that many of these are in Latin to start with so don’t need any change – for example acciō (`I send for’ – the summoning charm), cruciātus (`torture’ – one of the three `Unforgivable Curses’) and expectō patrōnum (`I await my patron’ – the spell that brings a magical protector – in Harry’s case a stag - out of the end of a wand. We were not sure, without consulting the texts themselves, whether any non-standard linguistic features in other spells were `corrected’ in Needham’s Latin translation.
 
Mention was also made of the 10th anniversary of the invention of the i-phone, whose advent was announced by Steve Jobs in 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_iPhone).  This led to brief discussion of `Moore’s Law’, the observation made by Gordon Moore in 1965 that the number of transistors that could be packed into a single integrated circuit (and thus the speed of the chip) was doubling every year. There is some controversy at the moment over whether this `Law’ still holds (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law) and Moore himself has acknowledged that it cannot continue to do so indefinitely. Still on the electronic front, it was noted that YouTube had been an independent company later acquired by Google.
 
Zhng Wei was continuing to follow Swarthmore College’s on-line reading of Abelard’s Historia Calamitatum, a text he said was interesting but quite difficult. For details, see the record of our June meeting.
          
Jeanne mentioned Neville Sarony, a barrister and former professor of law at City University, who is married to a Nepali (the younger sister of his first wife who died some years ago) and is the author of one autobiographical volume (Counsel in the Clouds), focussing on Nepal in the 1960s, and two thrillers set in Nepal – The Dharma Expedient and Devlin’s Chakra. The second novel was recently launched in Hong Kong (see https://www.ticketflap.com/neville-sarony). He is in addition a trustee of the Nepal Umbrella Foundation, an NGO that helps protect Nepalese children from traffickers (see http://umbrellanepal.org/) John corresponded with him briefly in 2015 but they have not yet managed to meet up.
 
We also touched on theories about the afterlife, including the Chinese concept of `Hell number 18’, the place where the worst offenders end up. This would correspond to the pit at the centre of Hell in Dante’s inferno, where, in line with medieval Christianity’s decidedly politically incorrect notions, Mohammed is continually cleft in two.
 
John learned that, when drumming his fingers on the table to acknowledge somebody’s pouring tea (or wine) for him, he should keep all the fingers together rather than tapping them separately! The practice, as is well-known, is said to have originated from an incognito journey to southern China by an emperor, whose accompanying courtiers, unable to bow properly and thus reveal his identity, had instead to kowtow with their fingers.
 
There was another brief discussion on the enormous number of mainlanders visiting HK annually – now around 43 million – and on the effect on the property market of mainland money.
 
Ths led to the topic of linguistic differences within China and the fact that Putonghua could be regarded as Beijing dialect, shorn of the peculiarities of the latter (particularly the notorious `r’) which make it difficult for people from other provinces to pronounce. Jeanne remembered how her father, claimed never to speak `Putonghua’, but only the
Kuomintang’s guoyu (Cantonese `Gwokyu’ – the term employed at Kiangsu-Chekiang College in Kwai Chung when John taught there in the 1980s). In fact the two were virtually the same thing, and also little different from guanhua (`official language’, i.e. `Mandarin’), the pan-Chinese lingua franca employed before the 1911 Revolution. Twenty years ago, John wrote a now-partly out-dated essay on the evolving relationship between Cantonese and the national language – `The Future of Cantonese: Current Trends’, which can be downloaded from http://hkjo.lib.hku.hk/archive/files/4f2b75239ff867ce521ae391d01eacb9.pdf
 
We compared the origins of Putonghua with that of Hindi and Urdu, national languages of India and Pakistani,which were also based on the speech variety found near the centre of political power – in the South Asian case, Delhi and the region to the west of it. Hindi and Urdu are virtually identical at the colloquial level but diverge in thir more literary registers because the former borrows from classical Sanskrit and the latter from Arabic and Persian.In written form they appear totally different because Hindi, like Nepali, is written in the Devanagari syllabary and Urdu in the Persi-Arabic script. The name `Hindustani’ is often felt to have colonial overtones but it is still useful as a neutral label for the common core of the two national languages. This is sufficiently close to the major regional languages of north India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal and Afghanistan to be very easily acquired by their speakers, a feature which helps explain the popularity of `Bollywood’ (Hindi movies) throughout this wider area.

                                                                   Relationship between Hindi and Urdu
       ( a limitation in the browser results in the Urdu script being written left-to-right rather than the correct right-to-left) 
 
                                         HINDI                                           URDU                                         ENGLISH
Informal (spoken)      _____ aapkaa naam kyaa hai? ________                                 What is your name?
        (written)              आपका नाम क्या है?                          ہے؟ یا ک نام کا آپ
 
Formal (spoken)    aapkaa shubha nam kyaa hai?  aapka izm-i-sheruf kyaa hai?  What is your good name?
Picture
                                              Approximate locations of major Indo-Aryan language/dialects

We considered the tendency in Hong Kong, south Asia and many other places for those with some knowledge of English to pepper their own langage with phrses taken from it. John recalled overhearing two Chinese hikers discussing what route to take and one of them saying `Mouh dahk biht(冇特別) preference.’ (`I have no special preference’). Similarly, Nepalis frequently use an English loan word rather than the formal terms found in literary Nepali. Thus a newspaper might use the Sanskrit word prahari for `police’ but in colloquial Nepali it would almost invariably be polis.
 
The text of Genesis chapters 7 and 8, shich we read aloud and answered questions on, is given below

GENESIS
​

Chapter 7

1.Dīxitque dominus ad eum: Ingredere tū et omnis domus tua in arcam: tē enim vīdī
   And-said     lord                 to   him                 go        you and   all          house   your into  ark       you for  I-have-seen
iūstum cōram mē in generātiōne hāc.
just               before   me   in    generation       this
2.Ex omnibus animantibus mundīs tolle septēna et septēna, masculum et fēminam: dē
  Out-of  all                     animals              clean     take   seven-each and   seven-each    male       and   female     from
animantibus vērō immundīs duo et duo, masculum et fēminam.[1]
animals                  indeed    unclean    two    and two     male             and   female
3.Sed dē volātilibus caelī septēna    et septēna, masculum et fēminam; ut salvētur sēmen
   But   from  flying-things  of-sky seven-each and  seven-each    male         and    female   that  may-be-saved seed
super faciem ūniversae terrae.
upon    face             of-whole      earth
4.Adhūc enim, et post diēs septem ego pluam super terram quadrāgintā diēbus et
   still               for   and  after  days  seven             I   will-rain   upon   earth              for-forty        days      and
quadrāgintā noctibus:[2] et dēlēbō      omnem substantiam, quam fēcī,       dē superficiē terræ.
  forty                          nights               and-I-will-destroy  every              entity                 which I-have-made from    surface     of-earth
5.Fēcit ergō    Noë omnia quæ mandāverat     eī   Dominus.
    made therefore Noah  all-things that had-commanded  to-him  the-lord
6. Eratque sexcentōrum annōrum quandō dīluviī aquæ inundāvērunt super terram.
  and-he-was   of-six-hundred      years             when    of-flood    waters   over-flowed           upon   the-earth
7. Et ingressus est Noë et filiī ejus, uxor ejus et uxōrēs filiōrum ejus cum eō in arcam
         and  entered   [is]  Noah  and sons  his    wife  his       and  wives  of daughters his   with  him  into  ark
propter aquās dīluviī.
because-of  waters  of-flood 
8. Dē animantibus quoque mundīs et immundīs, et dē volucribus, et     ex  omnī   quod
         From  animals               also           clean    and   unclean     and from  flying-things and from everything which
movētur super terram,
moves             upon   earth
9. duo et duo ingressa sunt ad Noë in arcam, masculus et fēmina, sīcut præcēperat
    two   and   two  entered   [are]       to  Noah  into  ark          male           and   female   as       had-instructed
Dominus Noë.
the-lord   Noah
10. Cumque trānsīssent[3] septem diēs, aquæ dīluviī inundāvērunt super terram.
           And-when     had-passed             seven       days   waters   of-flood          over-flowed          upon   the-earth
​

NOTES
[1] Seven of each clean species were apparently selected to provide three breeding pairs plus one animal to be sacrificed to God. The `clean’ category included animals with cleft hooves which chewed the cud (e.g. cows), fish with scales and most birds except scavengers. There is an illustrated account at https://tben.wordpress.com/2016/10/26/the-shadow-of-the-old-testament-part-5-clean-and-unclean-meat/
[2] Diēbus…noctibus: ablative plural for duration of time which would be expressed by the accusative in classical Latin
[3] trānsīssent: contraction of trānsīvissent

11. Annō sexcentēsimō vītæ Noë,     mēnse secundō, septimōdecimō diē mēnsis, ruptī
        in-year    six-hundedth    of-life  of-Noah  in-month   second               17th              on-day of-month ruptured
sunt omnēs fontēs abyssī magnæ, et cataractæ cælī apertæ sunt:
were     all          springs  of-abyss   great        and   cataracts of-heaven opened-were
12. et facta est pluvia super terram quadrāgintā diēbus et quadrāgintā noctibus.
      and made   was  rain            upon    earth      for-forty             days     and     forty                  nights
13.In articulō diēī illīus ingressus est Noë, et Sem, et Cham, et Japheth fīliī ejus; uxor
        in   moment  of-day   that    entered   [was]  Noah  and  Sem and Cham   and  Japheth  sons  his     wife
illīus, et trēs uxōrēs fīliōrum ejus cum eīs in arcam:
of-him  and three   wives   of-sons   of-him   with  those into  ark
14. ipsī    et omne animal secundum genus suum, ūniversaque jūmenta          in genere suō, et
 themselves and every   animal    according-to         kind    its                 and-all         beasts-of-burden in      kind   own  and
omne    quod movētur[1] super terram in genere suō, cūnctumque volātile secundum
everything which   move                     \upon       earth    in          kind     its      and-every           flying-thing   according-to 
genus suum, ūniversæ avēs, omnēsque volucrēs,[2]
  kind     its                   all             birds    and-all      flying-creatures
15. ingressæ sunt ad Noë in arcam, bīna et bīna       ex omnī carne, in quā erat spīritus
          entered    [were]  to  Noah into  ark  two-each and two-each from  all        flesh     in  which was  breath
vītæ.
of-life
16. Et quæ ingressa       sunt, masculus et fēmina ex omnī carne introiērunt, sīcut
        and things-which entered [are]    male           and  female  from  all         flesh   they-went-in     as
præcēperat       eī   Deus: et inclūsit eum Dominus dēforīs.
had-commanded to-him  God    and shut-in   him     Lord      from-outside
17. Factumque est dīluvium quadrāgintā diēbus super terram: et multiplicātæ sunt
           and-made     was    flood             forty                 for-days   upon     the-earth  and   multiplied       were
aquæ,     et ēlevāverūnt   arcam      in sublīme ā terrā.
waters          and  they-raised       the-ark      into    a-height from earth 
18. Vehementer enim inundāvērunt,  et   omnia replēvērunt in superficiē terræ: porrō
           With-force              for  they-overflowed    and  all-things  filled-up               on  surface     of-earth  moreover
arca ferēbātur super aquās.
the-arc    was-carried upon  waters
19. Et aquæ prævaluērunt nimis super terram: opertīque sunt omnēs montēs excelsī
        and waters     prevailed          too-much  upon      earth   and-covered   were     all         mountains  lofty
sub ūniversō cælō.
under  whole      sky
20. Quīndecim cubitīs altior fuit aqua super montēs, quōs operuerat.
               Fifteen           cubits    higher was   water  above  mountains  which  it-had-covered
21. Cōnsūmptaque est omnis carō quæ movēbātur super terram, volucrum,
           And-consumed      was   all          flesh   which  moved                upon     earth      of-birds
animantium, bēstiarum, omniumque reptilium, quæ reptant super terram: ūniversī
of-animals                 of-beasts       and-of-all               reptiles     which   creep          upon     earth           all
hominēs,
men
22. et cūncta, in quibus spīrāculum vītæ est in terrā, mortua sunt.
       And  all-things in   which    breath                of-life is     on  earth      dead     are
23. Et dēlēvit omnem substantiam quæ erat super terram, ab homine usque ad pecus,
      and  he-destroyed every     entity                  which was    upon   earth        from   man      right-up  to  cattle
tam reptile quam volucrēs cælī: et    dēlēta sunt           dē terrā. Remānsit autem sōlus Noë, et
both    reptiles   and            birds    of-sky  and eliminated they-were from earth      remained    however  alone Noah and
quī         cum eō erant in arcā.
those-who with   him were  in  ark
24. Obtinuēruntque aquæ terram centum quinquāgintā diēbus.
         And-prevailed-over    waters  the-earth  hundred    fifty                   for-days

NOTES 
[1] The Hebrew ramesh usually means `creeping’ or `crawling’ and the Septuagint’s herpeton something slow-moving, so the reference is presumably to reptiles so KJV (`creeping thing’) is accurate and Jerome’s omne quod movēbātur too general.
[2] ūniversae avēs, omnēsque volucrēs: Jerome uses to words for `birds’whereas the Hebrew is literally `birds of every sort’ 

Chapter 8
 
1 Recordātus[1] autem Deus Noë, cūnctōrumque animantium, et omnium jūmentōrum,
   Remembered              however  God   Noah                     and-all               animals            and            all      beasts-of-burden
quæ    erant  cum    eō in arcā, addūxit     spīritum super terram, et imminūtæ sunt aquæ.
which         were  with     him  in  ark       brought  (his) spirit/breath over  earth        and    lessened   were   waters
2 Et clausī sunt fontēs abyssī, et cataractæ cælī:   et prohibitæ sunt pluviæ dē cælō.
 and   closed    were   springs  of-abyss and   cataracts of-heaven and  barred        were    rains   from   sky
3.Reversæque sunt aquæ dē terrā euntēs et redeuntēs:[2] et cœpērunt minuī   post centum
      and-reversed        were  waters from earth        going   and  returning                and      began    to-be-reduced after   100
quīnquagintā diēs.
100           50          days
4.Requiēvitque arca mēnse septimō, vīgēsimō septimō diē mēnsis, super montēs
        and-rested           ark    in-month   seventh   on-twentieth  seventh  day  of-month   above   mountains
Armeniæ.[3]
of-Armenia
5. At vērō aquæ         ībant   et dēcrēscēbant usque ad decimum mēnsem: decimō enim mēnse,  
   But indeed the-waters were-going and    decreasing           up     to     tenth                month      in-tenth     for         month
prīmō diē mēnsis, apparuērunt cacūmina montium.
on-first  day   of-month  appeared              summits    of-mountains
6. Cumque trānsīssent quadrāgintā diēs, aperiēns Noë fenestram arcæ, quam fēcerat,
      And-when    had-passed                forty        days          opening  Noah   window        of-ark    which  he-had-made
dīmīsit corvum,
sent-off      raven
7. quī ēgrediēbātur, et nōn revertēbātur, dōnec siccārentur[4] aquæ super terram.
    which     was-going-out  and   not    returning                     until     should-dry-up            waters  upon      earth
8. Ēmīsit quoque columbam post eum, ut    vidēret   sī jam cessāssent[5] aquæ super
     He-sent-out   also                   dove      after      it   so-that it-might-see  if   now      had-receded            waters  over
faciem terræ.
face        of-earth
9 Quæ cum nōn invēnisset ubi requiēsceret pēs ejus, reversa est ad eum in arcam:
     which when   not     had-found  place-where it-might-rest  foot  its    returned [is]   to   him  into   ark
aquæ enim erant super ūniversam terram: extenditque manum, et apprehēnsam    intulit
waters    for        were   over                  entire      earth     and-he-extended   hand      and  having-been-caught  brought
in arcam.[6]
into  ark
10 Expectātīs    autem ultrā septem diēbus aliīs,[7] rūrsum dīmīsit columbam ex arcā.
   Having-been-awaited but     further   seven               days    other            again     he-sent-off     dove            out-of  ark
11 At illa vēnit ad eum ad vesperam, portāns rāmum olivæ virentibus foliīs in ōre suō:
     But  that   came to   him  towards  evening       carrying    branch    of-olive  with-green  leaves in  mouth its
intellēxit ergō      Noë quod cessāssent aquæ super terram.
inderstood   therefore Noah  that     had-receded   waters   upon   earth

NOTES
[1] recordor (1), like meminī and oblīvīscor, normally takes a genitive object.
[2] KJV, as usual more faithful to the original Hebrew, says the waters `returned continually’. Jerome’s euntēs et redeuntēs perhaps refers to rain’s normal feature of stopping and starting again, or to the waters flowing this way and that as they receded.
[3] The Hebrew and Vulgate have `Ararat’ (corresponding to the the Assyrian Uratu), which referred to the whole region between the Araxes River and Lake Van (the kingdom of Urartu covered a wider area – see the map). Mt Ararat (16, 254 feet), which is in modern Turkey, is the highest of the area’s many peaks.
[4] The subjunctive siccārentur is used as the reference is to the purpose or expectation in the bord’s (or Noah’s) mind. Whether the bird eventually returned is left open.
[5] cessāssent: contraction of pluperfect subjunctive cessāvissent. The normal meaning of cessō (1) is `cease’, `stop’.
[6] The very common classical idion of using a passive perefect particple instead of a finite verb for the first of two actions done to the same object: [columbam] apprehēnsam intulit = apprehendit et intulit.
[7] Ablative absolute (literally `with another further seven days having been further waited for’)

​12 Expectāvitque nihilōminus septem aliōs diēs: et ēmīsit columbam, quæ nōn est
        And-he-waited       nevertheless           seven   other   days  and sent-out   dove                which  not  [is]
reversa ultrā    ad eum.
returned  any-more to  him
13 Igitur sexcentesimō prīmō annō, prīmō mēnse, prīmā diē mēnsis, imminūtæ sunt
   Therefore    in 600th                 first     year       in-first   month     on-first  day    of-month      lessened    were
aquæ super terram: et aperiēns Noë tēctum arcæ, aspexit, vīditque quod exsiccāta
waters    upon   earth       and   opening     Noah  mouth   of-ark   he-looked   and-saw      that   dried-out
esset superficiēs terræ.
was           surface       of-earth
14 Mēnse secundō, septimō et vīgēsimō diē mēnsis ārefacta est terra.
      In-month  second     on-seventh and  twentieth  day  of-month  made-dry  was  earth
15 Locūtus est autem Deus ad Noë, dīcēns:
           Spoke   [is]   moreover God   to    Noah   saying
16 Ēgredere dē arcā, tū et uxor tua, fīliī tuī et uxōrēs fīliōrum tuōrum tēcum.
       Go-out       from  ark   you and   wife your  sons your and  wives   of-sons       your    with-you
17 Cūncta animantia, quæ sunt apud tē, ex   omnī carne, tam in volātilibus quam in
      All                  animals      which  are     with   you out-of  all           flesh  both in   flying-things          and  in
bēstiīs et ūniversīs reptilibus, quæ reptant super terram, ēdūc tēcum,   et ingrediminī[1]
beasts    and   all                   reptiles      which   creep           upon   earth     lead-out  with-you and  enter
super terram: crēscite et multiplicāminī super eam.
upon     earth               grow   and   multiply                      upon   it
18 Ēgressus est ergō      Noë, et fīliī ejus: uxor illīus, et uxōrēs fīliōrum ejus cum eō.
        Went-out    [is] therefore Noah and sons   his     wife        his   and    wives     of-sons        his    with him
19 Sed et omnia animantia, jūmenta,     et  reptilia quæ reptant super terram, secundum
      But   also all            animals     beasts-of-burden and  reptiles   which   crawl            over   earth      according-to
genus suum, ēgressa sunt dē arcā.
kind      own    went-out  [are] from  ark
20 Ædificāvit autem Noë altāre[2] Dominō: et tollēns de cūnctīs pecoribus et
      Built                 moreover Noah       altar      for-the-Lord   and    taking  from          all           cattle        and
volucribus mundīs, obtulit holocausta    super altāre.
birds                   clean      he-offered   burnt-sacrifices upon    altar
21 Odōrātusque est Dominus odōrem suāvitātis, et ait: Nēquāquam ultrā maledīcam
     And-smelled           [is]   Lord             smell      of-sweetness  and said      In-no-way     further  I-will-curse
terræ      propter hominēs: sēnsus enim et cogitātiō hūmānī cordis in malum prōna sunt ab
the-earth  because-of   men                  feeling   for   and    thinking  of-human  heart       to   evil         inclined    are  from
adolēscentiā suā: nōn igitur   ultrā percutiam omnem animam vīventem sīcut fēcī.
adolescence           his    not   therefore further I-will-strike   every              soul                 living       as    I-did
22 Cūnctīs diēbus terræ, sēmentis et messis, frīgus et æstus, æstās et hiems, nox et
           For-all      days   of-earth         sowing and  harvesting  cold    and heat    summer and  winter  night and
diēs non requiēscent.
day       not    shall-cease

NOTES
[1] The imperative ingrediminī mistranslates the Hebrew saw-ratsu, which means`in order to breed abundantly’ (see the KJV) not `go into!’
[2] altar(e) (-is, n) and altārium(-ī n) are found in singular forms only in post-classical Latin. Earlier there was only the plural altāria, -ium n..

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